Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Want to know how something works? Harness the power of the Brainiacs!
User avatar
PID_Stop
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Syracuse, New York
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by PID_Stop » Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:07 am

w9wi wrote:...Except that the guy was probing around the *good* ACR trying to find the voltage that didn't match the *bad* one.

He had to go without help, as the remainder of the engineering staff was stuck on spot reel duty:)
Ouch!

One of the (somewhat) amusing parts of our experience was that while we managed to find and fix most of the damage, we never quite got the analog-to-digital converter working right (it was an early ACR-25B). We wound up ordering the four cards that made up the converter... and instead of getting four boards crammed with 14- and 16-pin DIPs, we got three boards with nothing but traces linking edge connector pins, and a fourth board with an enormous TRW IC and a handful of supporting components around it.

The particular engineer with the loose probe kept well away from the ACR from that point on.

-- Jeff

User avatar
DolbySR
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:48 am
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by DolbySR » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:13 am

Hi Jeff!
PID_Stop wrote:I didn't know that about the TCR... some of our carts must have played thousands of times before we respooled them with new tape (I'm thinking particularly about cart 6007, the generic legal ID. Funny how some details get etched into one's memory, even 30 years later!). As it was, we kept reasonably busy dubbing new spots as they came in... I can't imagine having to redub existing spots that frequently.
Okay, I was confused as well when I thought about it. Might have been a misunderstanding. But I see how certain carts must have been used several times during the day. Especially those station IDs. It would have been totally evil if someone would change the cart number to a different one. Especially when you were in a hurry and had to play the ID... Suddenly there is a commercial for some strange thing on the screen instead of the ID :lol:
PID_Stop wrote:Every spot that came in on a quad reel got dubbed to an ACR cart; we also dubbed most 16mm films.
I assume they didn't come in on a big and heavy reel when there was only about 30 seconds of program on it - plus the leader and so on... ? Were there tiny quad reels as well? I have a 30 min Tape reel at home for my 1" machine, but even this one would be a waste of tape for one spot only.
PID_Stop wrote:We also used to air a fair number of commercials that consisted of several slides and an audio cart (for some reason, these were mainly shoe stores), and those aired live. Our traffic department must have really hated me, because they always scheduled these slide-cart spots toward the end of breaks leading up to a show that was playing from a quad VTR; our Ampex VR-2000 quad machines needed an eight-second pre-roll. So every afternoon I had to switch a break that looked something like this:

I remember slides ads from my local cinema before they upgraded to a small digital projector solely used for commercials (off a DTS-XD10 unit) next to the 35mm projector. A friend of mine has a large format slide projector and when I first saw those images, I was shocked how clear they were. Sure, on television it was a different thing, but I never imagined that ads on slides with a separate audio cart were used on tv as well. Especially that you had to run the "slideshow" manually. Wasn't there a possibility to record the slides ad to video tape?
PID_Stop wrote:This would be a fairly simple instance... we also used to live-tag some commercials (movie spots, Ronco stuff) with slides and audio carts. And if the ACR was down, things got really busy. The whole day was pretty much like that... things would quiet down a bit during network programming, but that's when we would do dubs and commercial production, so there was never really a calm time. For years I worked the sign-off shift, and would get home around 2am; it would take several hours for me to wind down enough to be able to sleep!
Unlike quad machines, there's no way to "unwind" the tape in one's head...
PID_Stop wrote:The other stations in town had two ACRs, which gave them better backup; my station had one. When the ACR went down, we would immediately revert to airing spots directly from master reels. We had three reel-to-reel machines, and the worst case would be if we were ending a local show from one of them, had to play several spots from open reel masters, and the next show was also on VTR. It wasn't pretty, but it could be done. Murphy's law being what it was, this would happen while you had a tour group coming through the control room, or some salesperson was underfoot. Cigarette smoke wasn't the only thing turning the air blue back then.
At least those visitors had the best possible demonstration of hard working people who give everything they can to deliver the best possible television experience for the viewer at home :wink: Sure, it isn't something one would like to have every day of the year.
PID_Stop wrote:If we knew the ACR was going to be down for a while, we would put together a work reel, editing spots together. If we were in network programming, we'd slap together as many breaks as we could, then spin the reel back to play the next break we needed for air, then go back to building up later breaks. We would stick slips of paper in the reels to mark where to rewind for the next break, and where to spin forward to pick up where we left off. (Unlike the BVHs, the quad machines had only a single mechanical timer that you would reset at the head of each break so you could spin the tape back eight seconds for the preroll. Time code was just an abstract fantasy you'd read about in the trade magazines!)
Those paper slips remind me of a trick I heard from an old projectionist. While he was checking reels in the rear of the booth and if he had a show running, he would insert a coin into the reel just a few minutes before he had to change over to the other projector. If he heard the coin falling into the fire-guard enclosure the reels were in on the projector, he interrupted his task and went to the projectors to do the changeover. You simply had to be inventive back then :D
PID_Stop wrote:The ACR seemed to know when we had just hired a new operator, and would behave itself for a couple of days, waiting until the newbie was soloing before crashing. In my own case, someone doing maintenance on the digital time base corrector slipped with a scope probe, shorting the +12 volt supply to the +5 volt supply and taking out dozens of ICs on multiple boards. We were down for over a week, and I got pressed into some of the troubleshooting. We hired one fellow who lasted about a week until the ACR crapped out. He walked out at the end of the shift and never came back.
It's always the same with tech. It all goes well. A bit too well for too long and then it all crashes, goes out of control, explodes... you name it. As soon as the expert walks away, nothing works anymore 8)
PID_Stop wrote:That sounds good! I haven't made that yet this winter...
A good idea to make one this winter! I recommend moitié-moitié :wink: Or half-half in english, which does not refer to the coffee (?) half-n-half :lol: It's a mixture of 50% Gruyère and 50% Vacherin Fribourgeois, both swiss cheeses from the western (french speaking) part of Switzerland :wink:

Regards
Patrick

User avatar
PID_Stop
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Syracuse, New York
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by PID_Stop » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:54 am

DolbySR wrote:I assume they didn't come in on a big and heavy reel when there was only about 30 seconds of program on it - plus the leader and so on... ? Were there tiny quad reels as well? I have a 30 min Tape reel at home for my 1" machine, but even this one would be a waste of tape for one spot only.
Nope, most commercials arrived as a single spot on a small plastic reel like this:

Image

Almost no tapes came with leader -- that is, the inert plastic stuff that you would sometimes find on the head of audio tapes -- because mechanical splices tend to get caught in the spinning head. A typical spot reel like this would have enough tape to thread the machine, at least half a minute of bars and tone to set up the playback, a slate describing the commercial, ten seconds of countdown, the spot itself, and maybe half a minute of black before the tape runs off the end of the reel. SMPTE had specifications for this (of course!). This particular reel was the smallest size, and could hold up to about five minutes of tape.

Sometimes we would get a reel with multiple cuts -- movie spots would come with several versions in several lengths, for example. The tan reel below was good for about ten minutes, as I recall:

Image

The metal reel behind it was an hour; our machines could hold up to two-hour reels, which were pretty darn heavy. Incidentally, that hour reel is pretty rare for several reasons: Memorex was a very distant rival to 3M, and it was recorded using "low band" color -- the original color standard that our first tube-type RCA TRT-1B machines (circa 1962) used. Low band color had a carrier frequency that was low enough to be practical with the limitations of early head mechanics, electronics, and tape formulation... the problem was, the carrier was too close to the color subcarrier frequency, so you would see moiré in saturated colors, and the signal-to-noise ratio was fairly poor. High band color -- comparable to what the Sony BVH used -- was the norm starting in the mid to late 1960s.

-- Jeff

User avatar
DolbySR
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:48 am
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by DolbySR » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:25 am

Hi Jeff :)
PID_Stop wrote:Nope, most commercials arrived as a single spot on a small plastic reel like this:
Oh, right. They must have looked very lost on a big quad machine :mrgreen: even the 30 min reel does on my 3 hr capacity BVH...

PID_Stop wrote:Almost no tapes came with leader -- that is, the inert plastic stuff that you would sometimes find on the head of audio tapes -- because mechanical splices tend to get caught in the spinning head. A typical spot reel like this would have enough tape to thread the machine, at least half a minute of bars and tone to set up the playback, a slate describing the commercial, ten seconds of countdown, the spot itself, and maybe half a minute of black before the tape runs off the end of the reel. SMPTE had specifications for this (of course!). This particular reel was the smallest size, and could hold up to about five minutes of tape.
Yeah, okay. A leader as such would be something else. Possible that my recent project to add leader tapes to all of my 1/4" audio tapes somehow led to me writing about leaders on video tapes... I guess I meant the part with color bars and so on :wink: When even a small wrinkle will sound awful when it is around the head drum on my BVH, I don't really want to know what a splice will do... Not to mention a splice with glue leaking out from the tape ...
But I recall someone talking about the possibility to splice a quad tape? Cutting at the right position by using some liquid which made the tracks on the tape visible?
PID_Stop wrote:The metal reel behind it was an hour; our machines could hold up to two-hour reels, which were pretty darn heavy. Incidentally, that hour reel is pretty rare for several reasons: Memorex was a very distant rival to 3M, and it was recorded using "low band" color -- the original color standard that our first tube-type RCA TRT-1B machines (circa 1962) used. Low band color had a carrier frequency that was low enough to be practical with the limitations of early head mechanics, electronics, and tape formulation... the problem was, the carrier was too close to the color subcarrier frequency, so you would see moiré in saturated colors, and the signal-to-noise ratio was fairly poor. High band color -- comparable to what the Sony BVH used -- was the norm starting in the mid to late 1960s.
Right, this Low- and High-Band stuff. I read about that once and I also read about those moiré patterns. Wasn't there some kind of "anti-moiré" circuit? I'm not sure anymore, but a few weeks ago, when I binge-watched YouTube videos about quad machines and what not, I read or heard about a mioré compensation thing. Not sure anymore though...

Regards
Patrick

User avatar
PID_Stop
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Syracuse, New York
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by PID_Stop » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:01 am

DolbySR wrote:Yeah, okay. A leader as such would be something else. Possible that my recent project to add leader tapes to all of my 1/4" audio tapes somehow led to me writing about leaders on video tapes... I guess I meant the part with color bars and so on :wink: When even a small wrinkle will sound awful when it is around the head drum on my BVH, I don't really want to know what a splice will do... Not to mention a splice with glue leaking out from the tape ...
But I recall someone talking about the possibility to splice a quad tape? Cutting at the right position by using some liquid which made the tracks on the tape visible?
Splicing tape for videotape was a very thin metallic material with a special adhesive... much thinner and more flexible than splicing tape for audio. Remember, quad tape was formed into an arc by the vacuum guide, and the rotating head spun inside the arc. So any extra thickness on the backside of the tape would force the tape surface harder against the tips flying past. If there was any unevenness whatsoever, the tip would slice right through the tape... and if you were really unlucky, pieces of debris would get caught and break the exceedingly fine wire from the coil.

But yes, early videotape editing was indeed mechanical. A special liquid called Edivue (I think it was carbonyl iron suspended in a solvent) was applied to the edge of the tape, and would make the control track visible. The tape would be cut using a special rig with a microscope, and spliced so that the edit would preserve the regular pattern. (Remember, it wasn't sufficient to just look at the video tracks themselves, as there would be sixteen of them for each video field, thirty-two per frame. You needed the control track pulse to make sure your splice wasn't skipping from line 43 to line 177, driving the servo system nuts, and making everyone's TV roll.)

I just ran across a rather entertaining account of mechanical splicing at a New England SMPTE chapter's website.
DolbySR wrote:Right, this Low- and High-Band stuff. I read about that once and I also read about those moiré patterns. Wasn't there some kind of "anti-moiré" circuit? I'm not sure anymore, but a few weeks ago, when I binge-watched YouTube videos about quad machines and what not, I read or heard about a mioré compensation thing. Not sure anymore though...
Well, yes, you could reduce moiré by using filters; the problem was, you weren't just reducing the moiré, you were also reducing the picture detail in the process. Increasing the carrier frequency to get it well away from the color subcarrier and its first harmonic was a huge help. Later tape formats from Betacam on solved the problem completely by moving away from "direct color" recording (modulating the entire video signal, color subcarrier and all). Component recording eliminated the color subcarrier altogether, and recorded the luminance and chrominance information on separate tracks. This meant that the luminance could have a great deal more bandwidth, thereby preserving detail, without many of the odd intereactions that result when you encode color on its own carrier.

-- Jeff

User avatar
DolbySR
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:48 am
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by DolbySR » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:44 am

Hey Jeff

Guess what, I finally found some time to fiddle around with my BVH2180... :D

I fired it up after doing some cleaning and brought everything I needed to make some measurements with me.

First of all, I threaded a tape and let it run for a while. I then checked the LEDs on the RL12 board:

Image

Apparently, only the Drum Servo is locked. The 7-segment displays on the boards SY79 and SY80 both show "00" in Playback. The SV43 Board shows "FF".

I mentioned this single line shift earlier. I captured it on video. First, you see the Demod output, then the TBC output with this line shifting:

Link to Video

Next, I scoped the CTL Track Text Point on CD17 and got nothing. No signal. I then checked the WFM Output when I selected "CTL" as output signal. I then got this:

Image

This cannot be the CTL Track as this signal is present even when the tape is stopped and the amplitude is way too small. So I really doubt that the CTL track is being read properly. Even though it should be. Otherwise the machine couldn't do anything with the tape. Not even use Dynamic Tracking.

About that...

When I switch between the R/P and Play Heads, I only get a stable image on the Play head (the one with DT).

Demod Output:
Link to Video: Demod Output with R/P Head

With TBC, switching from R/P to Play:
Link to Video: TBC Output R/P to Play Head

Something else I noticed: The RF Level Meter fluctuates a bit when set to "V" on the MD14 board.

Link to Video: RF Level (V) on Play Head
Link to Video: RF Level (V) on R/P Head

When set to "S", the meter always shows zero level. I then scoped the RF Envelope:

Image

So all in all: The machine runs, but has some strange hiccup with the Servo System I guess...

Regards,
Patrick

User avatar
PID_Stop
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Syracuse, New York
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by PID_Stop » Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:40 am

You're right, at first blush it looks like there's nothing coming from the control track head. I'm a bit stacked up with stuff at the moment, but here's a quick idea: remove the plastic cover over the stationary heads, and look very closely at the wires soldered to the back of the heads. A number of years ago someone got a bit clumsy while cleaning the heads on one of our machines, and managed to break off a wire going to one of the heads at the solder joint. It took a while to find, because the wire was sitting about where it belonged, but there was no actual connection.

-- Jeff

User avatar
PID_Stop
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Syracuse, New York
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by PID_Stop » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:04 am

Here's what I'm referring to, as seen on a spare parts (and filthy) machine in our shop:

Image

It might be counter-intuitive if you're accustomed to audio reel-to-reel machines, but for the control track the main playback head is also the center record head. The only purpose for the monitor head is confidence monitoring during recording, and it doesn't feed the servo system.

The picture also gives you an idea of how precarious these wires are, as they're tack-soldered in place.

-- Jeff

Edit: To be clear, my comment about the function of the R/P head versus the monitor head applies to the audio channels as well. Whereas an audio-only recorder is free to use separate heads optimized for recording or playback, that's not an option for a VTR because changing heads (and therefore changing the distance between the video drum and the audio head) would produce a lip-sync error. This is probably obvious to anyone who works mainly with VTRs, but I put in as much time with Ampex and Sculley audio machines as with Sony VTRs.

User avatar
DolbySR
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:48 am
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by DolbySR » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:47 am

Hi Jeff

Right, I'll check the connection on Sunday! Is it the rearmost connection for the CTL Track? Or is the CTL head connected to the pads which are rotated by 90 degrees? In other words, is the CTL Track on the yellow or green wire marker?

I did the mistake today and wanted to trace the wires from the Monitor head to the Preamplifier only to find out, that this wasn't the head I was looking for. It's absolutely clear why record and play heads are combined in video machines, but just by pure routine, I chose the last head as the replay head... Well well, found out my mistake immediately though.

Regards
Patrick

User avatar
PID_Stop
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Syracuse, New York
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by PID_Stop » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:26 am

DolbySR wrote:Right, I'll check the connection on Sunday! Is it the rearmost connection for the CTL Track? Or is the CTL head connected to the pads which are rotated by 90 degrees? In other words, is the CTL Track on the yellow or green wire marker?
Hi Patrick!

Your machine might look slightly different because it has one more audio track, but on ours it's light blue. If you're looking at the tracks on the tape, audio 3 is closest to the baseplate, with the control track between A3 and the video tracks. On the opposite side (away from the machine) you have A2 on the outer edge and A1 between that and the video tracks. So the cabling winds up like this:

90: White cable / black tubing: audio 1 erase
92: White cable / red tubing: audio 2 erase
94: White cable / yellow tubing: audio 3 erase
96: White cable / blue tubing: control track erase

80: Grey cable / black tubing: audio 1 R/P
82: Grey cable / red tubing: audio 2 R/P
84: Grey cable / yellow tubing: audio 3 R/P
86: Grey cable / blue tubing: control track R/P

10: Brown cable / black tubing: audio 1 monitor
12: Brown cable / red tubing: audio 2 monitor
14: Brown cable / yellow tubing: audio 3 monitor
16: Brown cable / blue tubing: control track monitor

If you look at the top of page C-167/168 in volume 2, you'll see these heads and how they connect to the BE-02 and AP-06 boards. You'll see the numbers I noted above -- and they aren't arbitrary references, they actually describe the jacket and tubing colors using the resistor color code (0=black, 1=brown, 2= red, 4=yellow, 6=blue, 8=grey, 9=white).

That same drawing has a look at the traces on the HD-07 board, which come attached to the backside of the R/P and monitor heads.

-- Jeff
Last edited by PID_Stop on Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
PID_Stop
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Syracuse, New York
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by PID_Stop » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:42 am

Image

I just updated the photograph in a previous post after realizing that I had drawn the circle in the wrong place.

This is what comes of splitting some of my week to working overnights... can't think straight.

User avatar
DolbySR
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:48 am
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by DolbySR » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:56 am

Hi Jeff

Yeah, this confused me at first. But we are both on the same page now :D

I didn't know that the numbers are actually the color code of the cable itself! That's a really clever design there! I will keep this in mind if I ever have to come up with cable identification by numbers again. A real simplification. Love it.

Can I scope the head directly? I would use a differential probe or the differential mode on my scope to do that in order to avoid shorting it out to ground. Or will I see nothing else than noise when I try to get the signal from the CTL head directly? Of course I will check for a cracked or lose cable first. But just to get sure and to narrow down the problem.

By the way, I really had a hard time finding this AP board. I opened every can I found in the machine, but there was no AP board inside. Where is it hidden? Right below the heads? The one can I cannot open without disassembling the entire machine?

Regards
Patrick

User avatar
PID_Stop
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Syracuse, New York
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by PID_Stop » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:06 pm

The AP-06 board is mounted horizontally just under the transport, and above the card cage, directly behind the meter assembly. To get to it, remove the dark blue trim pieces to the left and right of the meter and keyboard assemblies; that will reveal two screws on the right that secure the meter panel. If you remove those two screws, the meter assembly swings out (it's hinged on the left). I'm pretty sure you need to remove both trim pieces, because the one on the left will get bent back by the panel as it swings... but I could be mistaken. It certainly won't hurt to remove it, though.

As I recall, AP-06 is enclosed in a metal shield, and I don't recall if it has a removable lid. I had to pull this board to replace a relay that was preventing one of the audio channels from recording reliably. In fact, I notice from the schematic (page C-120, volume 2) that they have the same kind of relay in the control track section -- so that's certainly a likely culprit.

The playback signal is extremely weak on the head itself; if you want to do some testing with the scope, take a look at IC501 pin 1 (the first amplifier) and IC502 pin 1 (the final output). You should be able to compare those against IC605 pin 1, which is the similar preamp for the control track monitor head. The two won't look identical, as there appears to be a fair amount of pulse shaping or gain control circuitry around the R/P head, but you'll be able to see how the signal looks as a function of tape speed. I would especially expect to see similarity between IC501 and IC605's outputs.

-- Jeff

User avatar
DolbySR
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:48 am
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by DolbySR » Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:02 pm

Hi Jeff

Okay, I wasn't so far off then. In my machine, the AP Board is enclosed in a metal can and I didn't really find a way to get this can open. Neither from the front nor from the rear. The entire transport mechanism is in the way. But I'm sure there's a way to get this can out. After all, everything else in this machine is designed to be more or less easily accessible and/or replaceable. I'll just give it a second go and look for the hidden tab, screw or what ever is holding it in place. 8) Is there a trick you know of?

The comparison of the R/P signal to the Control head signal is a great idea. I'll give that one a go. When will the Monitor head CTL signal be sent to one of the outputs of the machine to monitor the track being recorded? I assume during record. But what do I have to set? Simply scope the WFM output set to CTL?

Regards
Patrick

User avatar
PID_Stop
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Syracuse, New York
Contact:

Re: Sony BVH-2180-PS: Servo Error

Post by PID_Stop » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:14 pm

I was thinking of the RF amplifier above the drum assembly -- that's the one with the removeable cover.

Here's what the AP-06 looks like from the rear of the machine:

Image

This machine has the power supply completely removed, which you don't need to do; you will notice a handful of Totsu screws around the top, right, and bottom of the machine's back with white arrows; unscrew them (they're captive, so they won't come off in your hand) and the assembly will swing out (there's even a little prop rod on the bottom of the supply you can unsnap to keep the supply out of the way).

The AP-06 board is the one with the big white label strip, and you can see the screw that secures the lid. If you remove that, I think it slides off toward the back. You might be able to luck out and find the test points you want without removing the board, which is secured to a horizontal bracket that is screwed to either side of the machine, along with the enclosed board next it.

This is actually a rather useful part of the machine to get to know: if you start getting sparkly noise in video played back on the dynamic tracking head (but the R/P head is clean), you will be looking to replace the sliprings and brushes that are inside the clear plastic cover you see at the upper right of the photo. Do be careful what you touch back there: while most of the machine runs on low voltages, the motor drives and dynamic tracking actuator voltages involve much higher currents or voltages, and several areas (mostly in the top of the machine) can get hot.

-- Jeff

Post Reply