Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

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Qs23
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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by Qs23 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:23 pm

Hey All,

IT guy here now put in charge of moving our dish now that our engineer has retired.

We've got our massive main dish still pointed at AMC-8. But we've got a spare mesh dish on a polar mount that used to be pointed at Galaxy 16. So my thought was:

#1. Move the mesh dish to AMC-15.
#2. Move all the receivers to the mesh dish
#3. Move the main dish
#4. Move all receivers back to main dish

Well, I'm stuck on #1. The polar mount has a linear actuator that I'm guessing had a motor attached to it to move the azimuth, but the motor doesn't exist anymore. I've attached a photo of the end of the actuator. Does anybody have an idea of what I could use to turn it? It's almost like I need a really big screwdriver. The slot is 6mm wide and 22mm long. A lot bigger then any screwdriver that I have.

If nobody has any ideas, I might just remove the clamp that's holding the linear actuator in place and slide the whole thing up and down to move it.
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TPT
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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by TPT » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:10 pm

We bought one (used) like that to receive our state network on Galaxy at 99 degrees. Took the dish apart, assembled it on the new post aimed in the right direction, got "Derf" from the two way shop with his spectrum analyzer, & set it up. When we re-assembled the dish we left that actuator arm off.

I suspect it would be easier just to shove this dish around to the right bearing and rock it up to the right vertical angle. Either works or not.

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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by Shane » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:07 pm

Actually it's AMC-18 you want not -15. Also known as SES-11 unless I'm confused which is my normal state these days. In any case 105 degrees in the arc.

So far so good with our 10-footer. I'm sure it will change. Just noticed that I can't check on the snow accumulation from my office window anymore, which is now oriented somewhere around 290 degrees ref the dish.
Mike Shane, CBRE
---Omaha---

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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by kkiddkkidd » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:08 pm

If it has not been moved in several years, the acuator may be frozen solid. Sliding the clamp may be the only way to move it. I have been replacing frozen manual or motorized actuators with homemade adjustable links welded out of large all-thread and a few pieces of angle.

What size is your mesh dish? What kind of feed and LNB? You will have to have a fixed polarity feed and at least 25khz stability PLL LNB.

Good luck,
Qs23 wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:23 pm
Hey All,

IT guy here now put in charge of moving our dish now that our engineer has retired.

We've got our massive main dish still pointed at AMC-8. But we've got a spare mesh dish on a polar mount that used to be pointed at Galaxy 16. So my thought was:

#1. Move the mesh dish to AMC-15.
#2. Move all the receivers to the mesh dish
#3. Move the main dish
#4. Move all receivers back to main dish

Well, I'm stuck on #1. The polar mount has a linear actuator that I'm guessing had a motor attached to it to move the azimuth, but the motor doesn't exist anymore. I've attached a photo of the end of the actuator. Does anybody have an idea of what I could use to turn it? It's almost like I need a really big screwdriver. The slot is 6mm wide and 22mm long. A lot bigger then any screwdriver that I have.

If nobody has any ideas, I might just remove the clamp that's holding the linear actuator in place and slide the whole thing up and down to move it.
--
Kevin C. Kidd CSRE/AMD
WD4RAT
AM Ground Systems Company
http://www.amgroundsystems.com
KK Broadcast Engineering
http://www.kkbc.com

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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by kkiddkkidd » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:12 pm

Part I of my dish moving points article is up at Barry Mishkind's:

http://www.thebdr.net/articles/ops/studio/AMC8-18.pdf

Barry does a lot of editing on articles so the spelling and grammatical errors are not necessarily mine...
--
Kevin C. Kidd CSRE/AMD
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AM Ground Systems Company
http://www.amgroundsystems.com
KK Broadcast Engineering
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wtcmeng
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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by wtcmeng » Wed May 10, 2017 10:00 am

I put a 3.8 Meter Patriot satelite dish back in service yesterday on AMC 18 105 W. I am not getting as good of a signal on the Orbital XDS carrier. I went from a 13.6 ebno to a 8.4 The AG numbers went from 44 to 54.

If you look at the other carriers such as westwood they remained nearly the same. 12.3 ebno 56 AG Premiere XDS is 14.8 ebno 60 AG. Skyview XDS 15 ebno 60 AG. I have tried optimizing the LNB skew and was not able to get any better numbers.

I am a bit concerned as there is marginal headroom. This morning orbital was down to 6.7 ebno. It was cloudy and humid here earlier. The other carriers only dropped by 1db. Some have suggested TI but I am not suspicious that is not the issue. I have another station three hours away that is also having low signal strength on the orbital carriers since moving to AMC18.

Is anyone else seeing lower numbers on the Orbital carrier? Any suggestions.

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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by kkiddkkidd » Wed May 10, 2017 12:20 pm

I don't recall seeing an Orbital labeled RX at any of the stations that I have reaimed so can't compare. Your AG going up to 54 but EB down that low sez that you have plenty of signal but the quality is bad. Can you peak the Premier signal to EB>15? I haven't aimed anything that wouldn't achieve >15 even at lower AGs on smaller than desired dishes. I have fudged a few off a bit to improve WW1 EB's but the Premier EB stayed up near >15.

Did you try moving the dish slightly in all planes to see if the Orbital RX EB improved? If the dish isn't 2 degree compliant, you might fudge it away from the interfering carrier (unless there is an interfering carrier on both sides).

Did you peak it using a spectrum analyzer? Look for cross pol / adjacent bird interference?

What is your LNB stability?

Did you try the RX at the dish? I had one site that there was over 6 EB points difference between a direct dish connection or thru about 120ft of junk coax, splitters and bad connectors.

Do you have a fixed polarity feed? IE, not an old TVRO polar rotator type feed. TVRO type feeds can have significantly less cross pol isolation than a straight thru fixed feed. I have also found that on dual pol fixed feeds, there is a difference between the straight thru and opposite polarity port.

Then again, looking at the carrier plots at amc8migration.com indicates that the Orbital carriers are several dB below Premier's carrier.
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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by wtcmeng » Wed May 10, 2017 2:47 pm

Hello Kevin,

Below are the specs of the LNB I use. My dish is a 3.8 meter 2 degree compliant with a fixed polarity feed. I directly connected the Orbital receiver to the dish and the signal only when up by 1 DB. I do not have a spectrum analyzer. Today my premiere receiver is 15 >. I peaked the dish including the skew using the WW1 XDS.

What opinion do you have on the LNB specs?


Norsat 8515 Series C-Band DRO LNB

Input Frequency: 3.4 - 4.2 GHz
Output Frequency: 950 - 1750 MHz
L.O. Stability: +/- 500 kHz
Noise Figure: 0.22 dB
Output Connector: F-Type Female
L.O. Frequency: 5.15 GHz
Conversion Gain: 64 dB

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kkiddkkidd
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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by kkiddkkidd » Wed May 10, 2017 5:14 pm

There is probably your problem.

You need at least a 25khz LNB for most modern receivers. I am a little surprised that all of your receivers locked. I found a 500khz at one of my clients and it worked on AMC18 but took forever for the receivers to lock with less than stellar EB's. I tested with a used, slightly deaf 25khz LNB and everything worked fine and they have ordered a new Norsat 3220 that will be even better than the old test LNB that I carry.

A new Norsat 3220 is about $250.
wtcmeng wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 2:47 pm
Hello Kevin,

Below are the specs of the LNB I use. My dish is a 3.8 meter 2 degree compliant with a fixed polarity feed. I directly connected the Orbital receiver to the dish and the signal only when up by 1 DB. I do not have a spectrum analyzer. Today my premiere receiver is 15 >. I peaked the dish including the skew using the WW1 XDS.

What opinion do you have on the LNB specs?


Norsat 8515 Series C-Band DRO LNB

Input Frequency: 3.4 - 4.2 GHz
Output Frequency: 950 - 1750 MHz
L.O. Stability: +/- 500 kHz
Noise Figure: 0.22 dB
Output Connector: F-Type Female
L.O. Frequency: 5.15 GHz
Conversion Gain: 64 dB
--
Kevin C. Kidd CSRE/AMD
WD4RAT
AM Ground Systems Company
http://www.amgroundsystems.com
KK Broadcast Engineering
http://www.kkbc.com

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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by wtcmeng » Wed May 10, 2017 8:12 pm

Thanks Kevin. I am going to try a different LNB with better specs. I'll let you know how It goes.

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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by kkiddkkidd » Sat May 13, 2017 8:43 am

Hi all,

Someone sent me a link to a cool online live satellite spectrum analyzer operating from various dish locations.

https://satsignature.com/

I have saved plots from all of the AMC18 carrier groups as (similar to those at amc18migration.com) well as the opposite polarity of those same frequencies. I am also going to save similar plots from adjacent birds that might potentially help troubleshooting future non-2 degree dish problems. The bird at 103 is there but 107 is unavailable. I have messaged the site to see if 107 has never been there or if it is just down temporary.

That site cut into my twitter and facebook time dramatically Friday.
--
Kevin C. Kidd CSRE/AMD
WD4RAT
AM Ground Systems Company
http://www.amgroundsystems.com
KK Broadcast Engineering
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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by RodeoJack » Sun May 14, 2017 7:12 pm

Qs23 wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:23 pm
Hey All,

We've got our massive main dish still pointed at AMC-8. But we've got a spare mesh dish on a polar mount that used to be pointed at Galaxy 16. So my thought was:

#1. Move the mesh dish to AMC-15.
#2. Move all the receivers to the mesh dish
#3. Move the main dish
#4. Move all receivers back to main dish


If nobody has any ideas, I might just remove the clamp that's holding the linear actuator in place and slide the whole thing up and down to move it.
Why not put (leave) the mesh dish on AMC-8 and move your receivers to it? If it's an old C-band dish, it'll probably work better there anyway. Then put the big dish on AMC-18 and take the time to make sure the receivers all like it.

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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by mbrockm » Thu May 18, 2017 1:52 pm

Wondering what others are getting for results on the move to AMC 18. We moved to a new DH dish 3.7M from a Comtech 3.8M. We peaked with a borrowed sat analyzer and using one of the XDS receivers. Did find the analyzer could not ID it as AMC 18. Guessing it needed an update. Couple of questions. We found all the receivers had slightly lower signal levels on AMC 18. Is this because of the 3.7M, alignment, or typical. Second, Has anyone else noted this? Our older XDS receiver for Westwood one seems to be dropping out randomly. The other receivers have been fine.
Mark Brockmeyer
KMA Engineering

wtcmeng
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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by wtcmeng » Thu May 18, 2017 2:44 pm

Kevin,

I installed a new LNB as you suggested. This one was manufactured by Norsat and sold under the Dawnco label. It has + or - 2Khz LOL stability.
http://www.dawnco.com/site_html/***Show ... =All_.html

I only saw a slight improvement in signal level. Signal quality improved some. I was getting numerous Reed- Solomon errors on the tuner status page of the orbital receiver before the swap out. This has improved but has not gone away. I re-peaked the dish and polarity yesterday. I am concerned my LNB driven element is almost vertical instead of the calculated 18.5 degree skew for my area. I have heard of some in my area having the skew set straight vertical for peak but others have it set at 18.5 degrees to achieve peak .
Drivenelement.JPG

I borrowed a spectrum analyzer and I am concerned about a few things.

There is an carrier at 1412 Mhz not seen in the plot provided by the AMC8 Migration website.
AMC18 TP1.JPG
http://www.amc8migration.com/docs/AMC18 ... 17-T21.pdf

The 80 MHz span of the TP 17 plot may indicate cross pol interference.
AMC18 TP17 80MHZ.JPG
http://www.amc8migration.com/docs/NOTIC ... 17v2.1.pdf

Here are the other plots

WW1
AMC18 TP17 .JPG
Orbital
Notice the carrier at 1012 Mhz
AMC18 TP21.JPG
Any thoughts?

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Re: Offical AMC 8 Transition Thread (was Sat. AMC-8)

Post by Shane » Fri May 19, 2017 12:34 am

After repoint of DH one piece 3m dish we have EbN0 of 13.x on Learfield's unit, which is newer. That reading is higher than before and it doesn't seem to change much.

WW1 is only managing 8.x. Tried changing the freq and there may have been some improvement but not enough to leave there or else just no difference. However a) no dropouts experienced on the WW1 carrier, and b) this EbN0 reading is pretty close to what it was before.

Just had some torrential rain this week in the evening when I have two out of three stations (4 out of 6 transmitters including translators) on birds and I got no alarms. I was monitoring a tenant station during that time though so I could have missed something.
Mike Shane, CBRE
---Omaha---

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