RF Spectrum Analyzer

FM does it with frequency!
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Dale H. Cook
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by Dale H. Cook » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:02 am

I am on wife 0.0. At 66 I still haven't found a woman who would put up with the sometimes highly irregular hours and days that I work.
Dale H. Cook, Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
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AnabolicHippo
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by AnabolicHippo » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:50 am

RFWarrior wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:38 am
AnabolicHippo wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:26 am
It is a regulatory agency within Canada, they are responsible for "Spectrum Management"; because of proximity to an airport, they are asking for more detailed scans. I'm thinking that the "2nd harmony" is referring to the second harmonic.
I'd question this - Industry Canada has vans very well equipped with measuring equipment and field engineers very well versed in how to use it - I got to meet two of them the day we were ready to end the test phase of our community's 1kW FM and they were quite insistent that they wouldn't accept any scans from us (coincidentally, I do have access to that sort of equipment), I suspect due to the possibility of us not being versed in how to use the measuring gear the correct way (having an analyzer is one thing, knowing how to use it to take a proper measurement is a very different, much more complex, thing).

I also question that they'd use "harmony" in place of "harmonic" unless that was a transcription error. Did the email come from NavCanada? That would also be strange, as they almost always go straight to Industry Canada with any pilot complaints. I guess what I'm trying to say is to verify that the request is legitimate - having worked with both NavCanada and Industry Canada extensively over several decades, what you're presenting seems quite out of the ordinary. Did the request come from somebody with a navcanada.ca or ic.gc.ca email address? Is this a new station, or have you been on air for awhile? What frequency are you on (it's also very rare for them to ask for any special measurements in the aircraft band unless you're at 107+ MHz)?

In short, the Rigol won't do what you need, not accurately - and an inaccurate measurement is more dangerous than not responding. Best bet, if it's assured that the request is legitimate, would be to book the date with your consulting engineer (or ask them for a referral if there's somebody else they know in the area who they think could do a good job more quickly), then go back to the originator of the email, tell them you've booked the consultant and the measurements are scheduled to be taken on x date. If they didn't send you a "shut it off, now" message, then it's unlikely that there have been any firm complaints, or somebody reported a problem and somebody else is just fishing around trying to find the possible cause.

Two disclaimers - I'm neither a lawyer nor a professional engineer, so this is an opinion only, but that's how I'd proceed if my station got a similar request.
The department in question is Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada and the branch is Spectrum Management; their email is an @canada.ca address. If I was to wager a guess, they aren't sending their vans here because it is a remote region and it would not be cost effective for them to do so and, as for the 'harmony', I'm thinking this person's primary language is French.

In the past, we have not been obligated to provide scans of the aeronautical band because our stations don't operate in the vicinity of an airport; for one reason or another, this test was overlooked on both sides and was just picked up a few weeks ago. So, we've been informed that, as part of a change of facilities application, that we are going to have to redo the testing period for the site. I'm thinking that I'll try a hybrid approach on this, I'll ask about the Rigol and see if they'd accept results for future use and book my technician for the time being.

radio_guru
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by radio_guru » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:22 am

If you have access to $3400K US, the following unit (Anritsu MS2721B) will do the job with the proper accessory external notch filters. It's essentially an updated portable version of the HP8594E with tracking generator and a few added features.

I now own both model devices. The seller will accept $3KUS, but going to Canada might require some customs fees. And it's military surplus. This is a lab grade device built for field operations.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anritsu-MS2721 ... Sw6YtZS8Q6

Or just enter lot # 322563580312

RG

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kkiddkkidd
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by kkiddkkidd » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:50 am

radio_guru wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:22 am
If you have access to $3400K US, the following unit (Anritsu MS2721B) will do the job with the proper accessory external notch filters. It's essentially an updated portable version of the HP8594E with tracking generator and a few added features.

I now own both model devices. The seller will accept $3KUS, but going to Canada might require some customs fees. And it's military surplus. This is a lab grade device built for field operations.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anritsu-MS2721 ... Sw6YtZS8Q6

Or just enter lot # 322563580312

RG
I am digging thru the chair cushions for change right now... I have a 2721a and gave about $12k for it new just a few weeks before the b version was released. My 2721a is starting to get a little long in the tooth and has a couple of odd errors that crop up at the absolute worst time. Sending it back to Anritsu will probably cost close to $3k.

I have several customers that are slow paying over $15k of invoices from November. If I can jack them up, I know where $3k will be going...

Thanks for the link.
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Kevin C. Kidd CSRE/AMD
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kkiddkkidd
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by kkiddkkidd » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:25 pm

It took some serious cushion digging but I found $3040 and just ordered one of the NOS MS2721b's on Ebay. They apparantly have a bunch of them. The ebay post was showing 6 available with 16 sold and after I bought mine it changed to 10 available with 17 sold...

You can buy used 2721b units a little cheaper but these appear to be NOS with case and tracking generator.
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Kevin C. Kidd CSRE/AMD
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Deep Thought
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by Deep Thought » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:27 pm

Too good to pass up. :)

Same seller has "pre-owned" units with tracking gen for $1000 less. If you only need the analyzer and the power adapter here you go:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anritsu-MS2721 ... 2193914892

I remember when these things first came out around 2006 they rented for $1000/mo. :shock:
Mark Mueller • Mueller Broadcast Design • La Grange, IL • http://www.muellerbroadcastdesign.com

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kkiddkkidd
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by kkiddkkidd » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:06 pm

Deep Thought wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:27 pm
Too good to pass up. :)

Same seller has "pre-owned" units with tracking gen for $1000 less. If you only need the analyzer and the power adapter here you go:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anritsu-MS2721 ... 2193914892

I remember when these things first came out around 2006 they rented for $1000/mo. :shock:
Looking back thru emails & NRSC test reports, I bought my MS2721a new in early 2006 and did my first NRSC tests with it in April of 2006. I paid something over $12k for the instrument, power supply and extra battery. No options or extras other than an Anritsu cig lighter power cord but was later told, AFTER blowing it up once, should not be used to power the instrument because it would blow it up... Go figure.

I was considering renting an instrument for several weeks per year to do NRSC testing and sat alignment and as you noted, it didn't take long to pay for one at the typical rental rates.
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Kevin C. Kidd CSRE/AMD
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AM Ground Systems Company
http://www.amgroundsystems.com
KK Broadcast Engineering
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W2XJ
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by W2XJ » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:31 pm

A comple of points. First, Jeff is Canadian, lives in Canada and knows the broadcast industry there well. However, if you still want to take a crack at this, rent a proper analyzer, don’t try to cheap out. Many rental companies will let you buy for pennies on the dollar, depending on rental length and age of the gear.

Second in proper French Harmonic= harmonique. I don’t know what the Quebecois version of that is. It might have come from some one who speaks a permutation of French/Quebecois and has somewhat limited English as well but it smells to me like it came from some lower level government employee flying a desk in Hull. Less likely but possible from Winnepeg. Maybe many parts of Northern Canada.

Where is your station located? Provence will do.

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kkiddkkidd
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by kkiddkkidd » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:58 pm

kkiddkkidd wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:06 pm
Deep Thought wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:27 pm
Too good to pass up. :)
I was considering renting an instrument for several weeks per year to do NRSC testing and sat alignment and as you noted, it didn't take long to pay for one at the typical rental rates.
I received the new MS2721b today and it is absolutely a new NOS instrument with tracking generator. It shipped in a greenish military colored roller Pelican case including the instrument, power supply, 3ea Diamond broadband RX antennas, several various adapters, a USB cable, a cig lighter cable (BEWARE) as well as full unopened documentation & calibration certificates. It does not have a Compact Flash card included...

Over all... The 2721a did everything that I needed for 11+ years and expect the even better NOS 2721b to do the same for about the same length of time for 1/4 the cost...
--
Kevin C. Kidd CSRE/AMD
WD4RAT
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http://www.amgroundsystems.com
KK Broadcast Engineering
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Deep Thought
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by Deep Thought » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:40 pm

Based on that review I decided to get one to replace my trusty but 24 year old IFR A-7550, which has served me well but really is out of date, technology-wise. This unit cost less than half of what the IFR did back then, too. It'll be nice to have an up to date spec an which can run on DC and doesn't weigh 30 pounds. :mrgreen:
Mark Mueller • Mueller Broadcast Design • La Grange, IL • http://www.muellerbroadcastdesign.com

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kkiddkkidd
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by kkiddkkidd » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:02 pm

Deep Thought wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:40 pm
Based on that review I decided to get one to replace my trusty but 24 year old IFR A-7550, which has served me well but really is out of date, technology-wise. This unit cost less than half of what the IFR did back then, too. It'll be nice to have an up to date spec an which can run on DC and doesn't weigh 30 pounds. :mrgreen:
I used an A7550 from the inception of NRSC testing to 2006 when I bought the 2721a. It didn't have a battery but was still a chunk to strap down in the passenger seat of my truck. A friend owned it and let me use it for NRSC testing in exchange for doing his and helping with some sat work along the way.
--
Kevin C. Kidd CSRE/AMD
WD4RAT
AM Ground Systems Company
http://www.amgroundsystems.com
KK Broadcast Engineering
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arthur62
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Re: RF Spectrum Analyzer

Post by arthur62 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:53 am

This sounds strange to me because normally the CRTC in Canada will come with a spectrum analyzer and make damn sure that your carrier wave harmonics are down a certain amount of dB from the peak of your carrier frequency. I can tell you that if they are not someone with a funny truck and lots of antennas on it will show up asking questions. If it's not right you will not be allowed to transmit.

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