X-Y protocol??

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X-Y protocol??

Post by rftranstv » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:52 am

Can someone describe X-Y protocol? I really have no idea about anything on it. Sorry this is so vague. Thanks

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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by w9wi » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:32 am

That's indeed a rather broad question:)

It's a way of connecting control panels to a router, introduced by Leitch. (later Harris later Imagine which still sells X/Y products)

Physical connections are a 75-ohm coax bus terminated at both ends. I have a vague recollection there's a way to make it work over RS-422 cables as well. (but that may be a bad memory)
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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by rftranstv » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:55 am

So basically its a Leitch/Harris/Imagine proprietary protocol????

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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by NECRAT » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:19 pm

It's rather simple. In the Leitch software, the X-Y crosspoint setup basically fixes source to destination. (Think of a grid, X = Sources, Y = Destinations).
You'd set the button on a Panacea switcher to execute the X-Y point. It's been years, and I mean years, since I've used the Router Mapper software.
They called it the protocol, as it was used to program the whole system, and the cross point remote panels were connected using that network.

Doug, We had to interface the Jupiter Router to a Panacea XY system at my old station. (Studio was Jupiter, Transmitter was Leitch). In order to make it work, we had to use a Serial converter that ran on a very old PC. This was basically the very early piece of translator software. Our intergrator actually wrote it. It was basic, and it just ran. IIRC, it was almost bulletproof. The thing just worked. (Jupiter's interface on the other hand....)
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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by NECRAT » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:20 pm

rftranstv wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:55 am
So basically its a Leitch/Harris/Imagine proprietary protocol????
Leitch/Harris yes. I don't know if Imagine supports it anymore.
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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by PID_Stop » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:16 pm

The X-Y data protocol also applies to the RS-232 / RS-422 ports that you find on various Leitch and newer switchers (Xplus, Panacea) and the SPT translator. If you have a specific question, I might be able to answer it: I've written quite a bit of software over the years to control Leitch routers.

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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by w9wi » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:28 pm

So I wasn't imagining things about RS-422. It's been a few years (like fifteen) since I've had to work on an X/Y system.

When we went digital (and before we went HD) I had to get a small Jupiter working as the back-end for a Saturn MCR. I still have nightmares.
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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by PID_Stop » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:37 am

To be clear: there's the physical layer, which on a Leitch router was generally either coax (between router frames and control panels) or a 5-pin miniature connector (linking multiple frames for multi-level switching). Many of the frames also had a serial interface in order to extend control and configuration to computers; generally it was provisioned as RS232. Leitch also had the SPT adapter that would sit on the coaxial bus and translate to a serial connection.

I was thinking mainly of the data layer, for which I still have the protocols somewhere.

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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by NECRAT » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:13 pm

I had a set of Panaceas connected over XY protocol. I recall it being quite kludgey to setup, but once it was setup, it never failed.
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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by rftranstv » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:25 am

all good info, i wasnt looking for anything in particular. Just when you type X-Y protocol into google you don't get much. Not a big fan of Imagine hardware, it's always something with them.

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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by PID_Stop » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:49 am

rftranstv wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:25 am
Not a big fan of Imagine hardware, it's always something with them.
Agreed. We have had a lot of Leitch gear over the years, and it was remarkably robust. I was unimpressed when they were acquired by Harris, and even less impressed when Harris imploded into Imagine and Gates Air. Ross and Cobalt have supplied nearly all of our infrastructure gear for the last few years... including an Ultrix routing switcher, which is a particularly sweet piece of equipment. I think Ross hired a number of the original Leitch engineers who did the X-Plus and Via series design to develop and support the Ultrix.

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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by NECRAT » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:47 pm

PID_Stop wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:49 am
rftranstv wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:25 am
Not a big fan of Imagine hardware, it's always something with them.
Agreed. We have had a lot of Leitch gear over the years, and it was remarkably robust. I was unimpressed when they were acquired by Harris, and even less impressed when Harris imploded into Imagine and Gates Air. Ross and Cobalt have supplied nearly all of our infrastructure gear for the last few years... including an Ultrix routing switcher, which is a particularly sweet piece of equipment. I think Ross hired a number of the original Leitch engineers who did the X-Plus and Via series design to develop and support the Ultrix.
Agreed on Ross. They make amazing stuff, and it's nice to order a replacement frame supply from them, that actually costs less than on Digikey.
Not a fan of the Cobalt stuff. Had way too many failures, particularly with their crappy power supply design. The last three plants, I did a lot of install with AJA. The AJA still is pretty robust, and they have good support IF you need it. (Only needed it once). BlackMagicDesign is ok, except they tend to run their gear on the "hot" side. My college has a lot of BMD stuff, as can be expected in a small scale operation. I don't care for BMD support at all.

We recently installed a Lynx-Technik Yellow Brick, and I was very impressed with it. A powerful box with a lot of nice features. Funky (and klunky) web gui, but it works nicely. One of the few throw down bricks that actually takes "whatever you give it" sync.

For terminal gear, I went from a heavily Miranda facility to a heavy Evertz facility. Where I work now is big time Evertz.
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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by PID_Stop » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:36 pm

NECRAT wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:47 pm
Not a fan of the Cobalt stuff. Had way too many failures, particularly with their crappy power supply design.
Interesting. We have something approaching 200 Cobalt OpenGear cards of various descriptions... everything from D/As to up/down/cross converters to CALM processors. We even have a handful of OpenGear frames with their nameplate slapped on, but I suspect they're really made by Ross. We've never had any real problems over the years.

We've had a love-hate relationship with Blackmagic over the years. They tend to sell things that don't exist yet (we bought one of their first ATEM switchers for field use, and it was about half a year before they added support for the video format we needed to use). Agreed about running hot: I've installed rack panels with cooling fans adjacent to ATEM switchers and Videohub routers to keep them within reasonable bounds. It's pretty funny to buy one of their Teranex converters for about $1500... we had some of the old (pre-BMD) 3RU units as part of our original HD gear, and those cost something like $45,000 apiece.

One rather neat trick I've been using lately: their micro converters are handy for extending computer video over longer distances. When we rebuilt our studio a few months ago, we moved a whole rack full of WSI weather gear out of the studio and into the rack room. Each of the computers has a DisplayPort output, so I just used a DisplayPort-to-HDMI cable to feed a BMD HDMI-to-SDI microconverter that sits in the rack. We ship the 3G-SDI signal over 1855A cable to the studio, where it hits another BMD SDI-to-HDMI microconverter that's stuck to the back of the computer monitor. The video quality is sharper than VGA, we can send it hundreds of feet over ordinary cable (1855A, 1694A), and it even gives us a second video feed if we want to add another monitor somewhere.

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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by NECRAT » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:58 pm

PID_Stop wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:36 pm

One rather neat trick I've been using lately: their micro converters are handy for extending computer video over longer distances. When we rebuilt our studio a few months ago, we moved a whole rack full of WSI weather gear out of the studio and into the rack room. Each of the computers has a DisplayPort output, so I just used a DisplayPort-to-HDMI cable to feed a BMD HDMI-to-SDI microconverter that sits in the rack. We ship the 3G-SDI signal over 1855A cable to the studio, where it hits another BMD SDI-to-HDMI microconverter that's stuck to the back of the computer monitor. The video quality is sharper than VGA, we can send it hundreds of feet over ordinary cable (1855A, 1694A), and it even gives us a second video feed if we want to add another monitor somewhere.
We do this as well with a few computers, and like you, have had fantastic luck with it. Our studio runs are long. Real long. So it's 1694A or bust for us.
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Re: X-Y protocol??

Post by w9wi » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:28 pm

I had a frustrating issue with something similar....

I can't find it on the BMD website now, but they at one time sold a DVI extender which pushed SDI over 1694A.

Worked fine for the intended purpose, but one guy thought he could use it as a DVI-to-SDI converter.

Problem is, it told the computer it supported 1080i/60. Not 59.94 -- 60.00. When connected to the computer, the computer refused to output 59.94. Monitors & the router didn't care -- but the control room switcher & video servers sure did.

Just to make it a bit more confusing, you could route it into an Aja FS-1 set to output 1080i/59.94 -- but if the input video was 60.00, that's what you got on the output. (I'm still having trouble believing that part happened, but checked it enough times...)
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